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hello susie i got it from a mate so here is the web address
filling address ,ring them for advice , mention I told you to ring

Philip Denner (of Exmouth), I don't know if you will be notified about this message but my father, who you were at school with, would very much like to get in contact before next Friday (10 Feb 2012). I'll check back here to see if you reply. We've tried the phonebook but no luck, hence this rather cryptic message!

I thought the statement was very relevant to point out our common humanity, and to adopt a progressive and balanced view. It is seen in the community efforts in various cities to clean up after the riot, and as you say the broom was a symbol of this. Most poor and unemployed people did not participate in these riots. We need to rebuld and restore our urban communities, not only the bricks and mortars, but also the people and the social capital. The police should be supported at this difficult time, we need to get back to peace, calm , common trust, and as you say recognition of the common humanity of everyone who lives in modern Britain,and tolerance among all communities.
Best wishes,

MIchael Kain.

Thanks you Lewis. I may need to pray for political leaders to come to the communities where there is a predominant working class base and not urban city communities. Ed Miliband, who I happen to respect is perhaps following Aristotle theory and Maurice Glasmans belief that communities should come together for the common.

It is right to focus on bringing communities together for the better, however why is it money attention and political appetite is always focused on those communities that are not mainstream Britain and always after a disturbance.

Ed Miliband is using his power to alienate and frustrate the law abiding majority in Britain by focusing his full attention, not on his constituency but on the minority. This is wrong. THIS WILL BACKFIRE if he does not alter course. Cities have had all the regeneration, the facilities, the focus and thay have failed.

The Bankers are in the city, the media are in the city, the politicians are never out the city. Where are the problems in the City.

When miners were in poverty during the Sstrike they did not loot and pillage. They had nothing. The New Labour Generation have had everything. It has not worked.

Are you really listening Ed are are just glossing over the real issues to appear to be popular.

To be absolutely honest Angela,Billy Graham at 90+ doesn't have much to do with the looting/rioting in the UK.
Unless it's in some shadowy super-high-tech organising capacity.
Like the wiring his brain to a main frame,as in "The Minority Report".
But Mark asked about him.
The truth may set us free.
But more is wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.(Mort d'Arthur-
the passing of the king).
Builders tried rioting in the GDR in the 50's.The remnants were realeased in the 90's.
A rule of thumb is that when the rioting reaches Wellingborough
the fury has more or less spent its force.

I'm scratching my head to think of the times that rioting has happened when a left wing government has been in power in this country.It may have happened in the 1960s,I don't know.
I'm not an expert in the history of rioting,but I know that left wing governments here are rare,and so,in modern times, is rioting.
So the chances are going to be slim anyway.And how another country,who's regime has been labelled left wing,would deal with rioting is no guide to how Labour would deal with it.

During Mrs Thatcher's time in power,it was commonplace for Tory MPs,and right wing newspapers,to claim that Labour in power would turn this country into something like the soviet union.Why? because the word socialist was associated with both Labour and the USSR.Pathetic,empty scare tactics,obviously.
On the other hand,I hated Thatcher and I knew she was more right wing than previous Tory leaders.I was also aware of the National Front(whatever happened to them?),who were also right wing,but more so.It didn't take me long to think of Thatcher as basically the same as the NF( there was some membership movement between the two parties,in fact).Now,the NF was said to contain neo Nazis,or supporters thereof.
Naturally,I concluded that the Tories were neo-Nazis in disguise!

So what does Billy Graham have to do with the subject in hand?
Why has nobody volunteered any information about how left-wing regimes deal with looters?
What are you afraid of.
The truth will set you free

You could try praying Mark.
Surely a national day of prayer,or "reflection" for our agnostic/athiest friends,cannot be too far away.
IDS must be ringing Billy Graham as we speak.
This multi-faith unifier should obviously feature Tony B,Gordon B and John Major as its principal poster boys.
Maggie is probably not as appropriate.We don't want it swamped with ex PM's.
If Billy wimps out at 90+,let's turn to foreign reconcilition talent,say D.Tutu.
The Pope's imminent visit to the youth pilgrimage in Madrid has seen the knocking up of 200 portable confessional boxes.
These could be transferred to the House of Commons later.
Commune with the ultimate Mark.It's free,private,and available even in Doncaster.

Lets hold a national conversation or is lets hold a one way national conversation.

Contact a MP or leader of a national party with your views.

Reply

Thank you for sending an email to .............., Member of Parliament for ...............Emails are treated the same as other communications, i.e. post, telephone and fax, so we will be in touch with you shortly.
According to parliamentary protocol Members of Parliament only make representation on behalf of their own constituents. Please ensure that you have included in your email your name and full postal address. If this was not included in your email, please re-send your full email with your full name, postal address, phone number and, where appropriate.

No Conversation because of protocol.

ok contact by Twitter
Controlled from the top down, not much of a conversation. Very little comments. Not Private. Too restrictive intentionally.

Telephone Parliament
Sorry Protocol again, not in constituency

Ok Contact Political Headquarters
Sorry we have no email address for your contact

Right how about facebook. Not very professional. Not really the avenue to hold a sensitive and important conversation.

Contact Constituency Office. Sorry he/she is he always in London. He/she live down there they have a house you know.

Oh Can you please tell me hoe to hold a national conversation so that my voice is heard.

Are you listening to my voice Ed

I had forgotten about Billy Graham’s links to Tony Blair and the Faith Foundation. In American domestic terms he is still more progressive than once he was. He seems to be keeping his distance from the Christian Right in its various forms and from the Tea Party Movement. 50 years ago he was urging on their equivalents of that era. He must be well into his 90s now and not so active. But if he wanted to he could presumably indicate his support for the Christian Right and/or the TPM.

Let’s hope that Lewis’s Sunday Homily is not lost on Protestant and Roman Catholic believer’s alike within the PLP. Alas it probably will be though. Meanwhile that reactionary figure Maurice Glasman, says that he is set upon bringing about the ‘redemption.’ of Ed Balls. One could almost feel sorry for Balls; but because it is Balls, not quite.

What a strange and faintly neurotic way parts of Labour neo-liberalism have in seeking to express themselves and the resolution of policy differences between them.

Labour Party Socialists like George McLeod and Donald Soper must be weeping in their graves.

I wonder if Mark has considered why this Compass statement was made in the first place. Before considering that, it may be that he inadvertently missed out the word ‘not’ which had it been included in the second sentence of the second paragraph, the criticism he seeks to make would be sensible in its own terms.- Sensible in its own terms perhaps, but then no-one to whom Mark might be directing his straw man of a criticism came anywhere near to suggesting that persons involved in the disorder in urban England, (including on a small scale here in Leeds,) thought that, ‘the neo-liberal hegemony is over, therefore I am going to loot and pillage.’

It might be argued that the ability of the state to contain the disorder and crucially to mostly see to it that the disorder is discussed largely in terms of a neo-liberal narrative, (not least by Compass, not least by the Labour Party,) shows that the neo-liberal hegemony is anything but over.

Whatever the merits of the Marsh analysis which Mark seeks to advance, putting up a straw man first has the opposite effect to that intended.

As to the Compass statement itself, that would appear to be more a function of the dominant group within Compass seeking to underscore its perceived closeness to Edward Miliband. In effect the dominant group within Compass did not have the option of saying nothing any more than they had the option of making other the kind of statement they in fact made. At the elite level at which Compass sees It self as operating, what matters s how the metropolitan elites interpret whatever the organisation decides to say.

An interesting by- product of the Compass statement seems to be Neal Lawson’s uncharacteristic willingness to engage in dialogue with his supporters. Usually their role is that of the paying guest and providing appreciative crowd scenes to whatever elite platform is holding forth at this or that Compass centred conference.

I will attempt to finish off this debate with touch of reality. It is clear from the start that this pressure group SIMPLY has not got a clue and have merely scratched at the surface of the recent issues in London and Manchester.

Its rational is born out of repetitive jargon, words and phrases and explanations that we see in every debate... The Market, Consumerism and Anti - Capitalist Marxist nonsense. This may play it part but I would imagine every person involved in such disorder thought before breaking windows that "the neo-liberal hegemony of the last three decades is over" therefore I am going to loot and pillage.

The following explanation is perhaps the best example of a common sense rationale governing the rules of the recent disorder and will provide an alternative motive for such criminal acts.

"Young people see their social life as a struggle for personal dignity in a social order which denies them that dignity. In the absence of of any existing social order to which they can adhere, they construct their own forms, rituals in which hierarchies are constructed, reputations established, and symbolic contests fought. In this way, they can relate to an order that is meaningful to them alone and which gives them a status and dignity denied to them by the rest of society. Therefore it is viewed that incidents of classroom and football violence (This would of course include youths rioting and looting) is not a savage, mindless phenomenon, as disorder for its own sake, but as rational and orderly, strictly bound by the rules. It is through these rituals that teenage boys express their own aggression"
Peter Marsh, Research Social Psychologist, Oxford University.

Good Luck with the next debate Neal

I don't know if Blair's policy of faith schools came out of his need to justify his children attending one,or whether he believes you require religion in order to have morality.In any case,they are divisive culturally,and a very bad idea.
But I don't think there are enough of them,or faith sponsored academies,yet to have had much effect on the greater community.And I don't know how one would be able to prove any relationship to the riots.
But that Billy Graham connection is facinating.
Have you read Francis Wheen's book about 'mumbo-jumbo'?It charts the influence of the new age on new labour,amongst other things?

Yes of course Billy Graham, the world renowned Evangelical Christian. Another American along with Robocop that will come to the aid of Britain in our dire need.

Is this the same Billy Graham who has links with Tony Blair and his Faith Foundation. The same individual who has links with the Church of England and many sponsors of New Labour's failing Academy programme.

Are these the same values that are forged within the ethos of religious schools in inner cities and in neighbourhoods throughout Britain that have the highest anti social behaviour and exclusions in modern times in the areas and communities that these schools serve. Yes of course how could we forget another New Labour creation.

Conflict of values and diversity within education + Conflict of values and diversity in the Community = Disaster for society and its citizens.

Recent events are such an example.

Perhaps Mr Graham could comment on why the majority of evangelical schools don't work with the communities they serve but are happy to gather and meet with people who serve the devine.

Fair point.

Paul,I think you are asking a lot,perhaps rather too much,from Billy Graham's brothers and sisters in Christ in the PLP.
Before they could change and abjure previous errors they would have to admit that they,too,were sinners.Or at least fell short of perfection.
The Devil's own job to secure that from the likes of Hazel and Hain.
Then there is the tricky text about giving up worldy goods to the needy.
Like the rich young man who left Jesus shaking his head,many in the PLP might find that a matter requiring extensive consultation with legal and financial advisors.
Finally the widow's mite,and the Pharisee who made a great show of his contribution to Temple charities.The guy was just a proto newlabour worthy.One thing many of Labour's heirarchy do have in common with the master though is a tendency to talk in parables to confuse the multitude.

Billy Graham began his ministry as a hard rightwinger with the drumbeat of his knuckles dragging behind him. In later life he changed somewhat and abjured some of the political and social views upon which he had built his reputation.

An example perhaps to some of his Brothers in Christ in the PLP?

Angela,you are asking for compass's position on various things.But,I get the impression that compass members have some shared principles but on some issues one person cannot be put forward to speak for all,as their views might vary(this is certainly true of the left in general).
From the various contributions that I've read,though,it looks like they would agree to the law being applied to criminality of all types,but,like people from across the spectrum,would want some laws changed.
You say "mindless"rioting.Perhaps I'm being pedantic,but would it make any difference if it were"mindful"?The law does not seem to make any distinction.As you're asking for left-wing views on the law,the "mindless" bit seems redundant.
I'm glad that you are against the eviction from social housing of those not actually involved in the rioting.The idea that a tenant could lose their place because of the actions of someone who they share with is appalling.Personally,I would only use eviction for tenants who were causing trouble to their neighbours.
The punishment that is decided by the courts for rioting,or anything else, should be sufficient. Such things as taking away benefits and the roof over one's head hardly help someone learn to live a crime-free life.
As you say,the rules are supported mostly by owner-occupiers.Shame if anyone calling themselves a left-winger supports such rules.Many were influenced by Blair,and others,into sounding tough in order to be more appealing.Obviously,that's shamefully hypocritical.
In any case,views of those who see themselves as on the left will differ.
I think race does cause problems for some on the left.You raise some difficult questions on that.
Meanwhile I have one for you:what is multiculturalism?I get confused,it seems to mean different things to different people.Please advise.

Angela, you are becoming irrational. You make the perfectly reasonable point that Compass does not mention race. You could reasonably have pointed out that Chukkah Ummanah used his contribution in the Commons to complain that some people were commenting that most of the people rioting were Black. But what is the purpose of your bitter and foolish comment that Stan will play the anti-Semitic card? Where on earth does your silly comment about’ if Turks had been killed’ come from?

The ‘new labour’ insiders who control Compass will use comments like yours to continue to use and patronise working class people. They can and will despise you. For odious ‘new labour’ academics like Jon Cruddas and Jonathan Rutherford you stand as the reactionary prole who cannot be saved and reconciled to society other than by their efforts and deeply conservative ideology. Stop pandering to them. It is you who will become bitter. But it is they who will continue to accumulate the cash, Kudos and ever more influence, in this unequal and undemocratic society.

If you think that there are race factors in the current issues, bring them forward. But don’t fall into a kind of racism. And please do not pander to the ideological prejudices of those around Eband. - You will end up with Maurice Glasman wanting to ‘love’ you.

Billy Graham preached a charismatic message of salvation through grace in the 1950's and subsequent decades;his worldwide crusades made many thousands of converts to basic Christian principles.
His profession was that we are all sinners,and in need of forgiveness only God could give through Christ Jesus by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
His speaking style was sincere,direct,and grounded in everyday experiences.Hence very effective.
In the revivalist tradition,the stress was on the individual's need to assess their relationship to the divine forces,and,in turn,to fathom what that meant to their conduct in their own private and social life,via bible study.
One variation in his crusades was the tendency to transfer converts to existing churches rather than "brand" a new faith organisation.
Politicians of various hues sought his guidance,which provided some commentators with a basis to question his relationships with the powerful.

Thankyou for that Angela, my thoughts exactly.

A warm wlecome to Stan. How long before he uses the term 'antisemitic' to get a bit of attention as he did before?.
I have waited patiently to be told about how Left wing regimes would deal with mindless and racist rioters and looters. Allow me to enlighten you
In Cuba they would be executed after being handed over by 'committes for the defence of revolution'. Ditto in North KOrea and Vietnam
In China executions are routinely carried out for a variety of serious crimes..
In Stalins Russia three separate organisation were authorised to carry out executions
I am well aware that this was grossly misused and abused as executions were carried out without a trial. After March 1953 executions had to be preceded by a trial and only
judicial authority could carry them out.
At that time Russia was one of the safest countries in the world
Now it is one of the unsafest and Moscow is by the most violent city in Europe.

Let me also clarify my support for the eviction of social tenants.
Only those who are directly found guilty of rioting should be evicted
This should not extend to family members of those found guilty. But this is precisely the position suported by Labour Housing Group which includes Nicky Gavron former deputy London mayor. Several 'human rights 'groups like Liberty have also supported the eviction of social tenants. After all they are only tenants. Let it be noted that most of the commentators on this issue are owner-occupiers.
Any comments from Compass?

Compass is also ignoring the clear parenting deficit. The vast majority of rioters are from dysfunctional and fatherless families , in families which are permanently welfare dependent. But who have been encouraged to believe in a culture of entitlement as an allegedly 'progressive' demand. Any comments?
Five people have been killed as a direct result of this racist rioting.
Thankfully no rioters have been killed by others. But what would have happened if a rioter had been killed by a Sikh or Turk ?
Then left wingers would have claimed that these were incidents in 'defence of communities' (sic)
But if somebody had been killed by a white householder or shopkeeper then it would have been condemned as 'vigilantism'
As ever Comapss supporters are avoiding the racial dimension of the created by left wign rhetoric about multiculturalism . This has resulted in less integration and more segregation.
Discuss

Thank you for that contribution Pauline, A welcome addition to the debate, It is very pleasing that we have a wide range and diverse view to the national conversation. It provides the author of the article a choice to embrace and recognise the church as an important institution.

I am sure that the Rt Hon Ed Miliband would be very keen to hear this passage of divine intervention which would be very helpful and useful in deterring rioters and looters on the streets of London.

Who is Billy Graham??

A Message by Billy Graham

Our chief concern is physical and temporal. Vast numbers of people actually believe that if we all have food, shelter, clothing, education and recreational facilities we will have attained utopia. Many of our statesmen, much of our literature and most of our commercial advertising support this utterly false view. Some television advertisements lead us to believe that the greatest catastrophe that could come upon a man would be to have a "five o'clock shadow," yellow teeth or a pimple.

This undue emphasis upon the importance of the body has created a system of thought that is more concerned with the accommodations of life's journey than with its destination.

A Cheap Substitute
Modern men and women have fled to ivory towers and there, surrounded by luxuries and computerized gadgets, they hide from reality, from their conscience and from God. But they are hounded by the feeling that they are not the people they ought to be, that they are not living the life they ought to live, and that "life [is] more important than food, and the body more important than clothes" (Matthew 6:25, NIV).

Modern men and women have tried to fill the vacuum of their empty souls with things that have proved inadequate to satisfy their deeper longings and hungers. External luxury is a cheap substitute for spiritual wholeness.

Anxiety is the natural result when our hopes are centered on anything short of God and His will for us. When we make anything else our goal, frustration and defeat are inevitable. Turn your eyes on Christ; worship Him. He will never fall or fail. He gives life balance, security and peace.

Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, warned us against anxiety: "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. ... Do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' ... But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well" (Matthew 6:25-33, NIV).

We create our troubles and then try to cure them without God. But mankind's self-sufficiency is playing out. We are awakening to the fact that our spiritual infirmity can be cured only by the Great Physician, and that the remedies He indicated are as valid today as they were when He prescribed them. Christ says: "Come unto me ... and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28, NIV).

Why We Are Anxious
Millions of people have every reason to worry, because their lives are so tangled by selfishness and twisted by sin. They need Jesus Christ.

God has promised, in the midst of trouble and conflict, a genuine peace—a sense of assurance and security that the worldly person never knows (John 16:33).

God has also promised new resources and new strength through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. However, millions of people, including some Christians, harbor anxieties and worries.

Anxiety exists when our basic needs have not been met. You cannot allay a baby's anxiety by giving her a rattle when she is hungry. She will keep on crying until her hunger is satisfied by the food her body demands.

Neither can the soul of a mature person be satisfied apart from God. David described the hunger of all men and women when he said: "As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, O God" (Psalm 42:1, NIV).

A starving man or woman's chief need is food. A thirsty person's chief need is water. A wounded person's chief need is a physician. And a lost person's chief need, whether he or she realizes it or not, is God.

You will never be the man or woman you ought to be—no matter how many remedies you try—until you hear and heed Jesus' words: "Do not worry...but seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well" (Matthew 6:31,33, NIV).

A man or woman away from God can be expected to be plagued by phobias, fears and complexes. Why do we have shocking episodes showing the brutality of humans? Because men and women have not had their basic need met—the need of being reconciled to God—so they are unpredictable, untrustworthy, worried, anxious creatures.

Of course, most people are able to restrain themselves from gross crimes, but underneath the cloak of respectability seethes and surges a sinful nature that is capable of the worst evil imaginable.

You may say, "But I know professing Christians who worry and are filled with anxieties." You are right! That brings me to the second point: We have anxiety when we try to carry life's burdens alone. The Bible says: "Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you" (1 Peter 5:7, NIV).

Let Christ Help
Some Christians have not learned that life is a partnership between God and individual men and women. Christ said: "Take my yoke upon you" (Matthew 11:29, NIV). When we are yoked with Christ, pulling as a team, life's burdens are easily borne.

But our sin separates us from God. The anxieties and burdens of life rest so heavily upon men and women because their souls, made in the image of God, cry out for God; and their souls will never find rest, as St. Augustine said long ago, until they rest in God. And they can never find rest in God until they come to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for sin and shed His blood that sin might be forgiven, so that men and women might have peace of heart and soul.

Christ, being God as well as man, could by His redemptive work on the cross mend the broken partnership between God and mankind. For all who have been born again by accepting this finished work of Christ, God walks with them, talks with them and lifts the load of care from their weary shoulders.

To all who wish to be rid of anxiety, I would make three simple suggestions:

First, stop seeking the trivial, transient things with which modern men and women glut themselves, and seek the Kingdom of God as it is revealed in Christ. Let God's life surge through your soul as you, by faith, put the whole weight of your burdens on Jesus Christ, who died for you.

Second, get your eyes off yourself; focus them upon God first, and then others. Self-centeredness is a terrible breeder of anxiety. Spend much time in prayer, and let a large portion of this time be spent in praying for others.

Third, commit yourself fully to Christ. Don't be a half-surrendered Christian. Among the greatest words that Jesus ever uttered were: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46, NIV). Even while Christ endured the shame and agony of the cross, His heart, soul, mind and strength were dedicated to the purpose and will of His heavenly Father.

The truly happy Christian is the one who is fully and wholeheartedly committed to Christ. Be that kind of follower of Christ! See what a tremendous difference that kind of commitment will make in your life. You will find that your anxiety will dissolve like mist in the morning sun. Life will take on new meaning and zest, and you will be able to say with Paul, "For to me, to live is Christ" (Philippians 1:21, NIV). Or you might even paraphrase Paul's words and say: "To have Christ is to really live—for Christ Himself lives through me."

Will you give your heart and life to Jesus Christ? Your life can be changed, and you can have the peace that all of those who surrender to Christ enjoy—the deep-seated peace that helps you to meet the troubles and anxieties of life.

Are You Full of Worry and Anxiety?
It may be because you have not had your basic needs met in Christ. Will you give your life to Christ? You can do it right now, wherever you are.

You ask, "But what do I have to do?" Just this: Acknowledge that you are a sinner—that you have sinned and rebelled against God. Renounce your sins, trust Christ to be your Savior and follow Him as Lord. The Holy Spirit will give you new attitudes, new desires, new motives—new life.

Well said George. Excellent contribution.

Quote

"These are the very people who offered a model of utter corruption to the population which they serve. For year after year, the majority of them entered into a culture of fiddle and fraud, indeed, there are some still residing in prison as a consequence. Yet, there they were, expressing their disgust at the truly outrageous behaviour of those who have looted, torched and despoiled our great cities, whilst they as a group, have, like the rioters, looted and despoiled the reputaion of the mother of parliaments and for the most part managed to get away with their criminal activity.

That would of course also include any MPs, advisors, consultantants and management of all major thinktanks and pressure groups who have been involved in prior alleged police investigations, financial investigations, court appearances and contraversial and conflicting business arrangements.

Such individuals have no credibility and no integrity and certainly should have no mandate to dictate to others how society should be organised and changed.

Condemning looters and rioters at the bottom whilst condoning those in positions mentioned above at the top is very hypocritical, which makes hard it to understand why some memberships are so high or why certain individuals representing those members and constituents are still in posts.

Kindergarton generation would of course include the Yvette Cooper and Ed Balls generation.

On that point did you know Ed Balls wents to the same private school as Ken Clarke and then Oxbridge educated. The only one in the last Labour cabinet in 2010 who went to private school then Oxbridge. However all the Kindergarten generation went to Oxbridge

Sounds all too familiar.

Totally agree George. Would welcome any constructive feedback on this important point

At the recall of the House Of Commons this week I sat amazed at the hypocracy ably demonstrated by the MPs in attendance. These are the very people who offered a model of utter corruption to the population which they serve. For year after year, the majority of them entered into a culture of fiddle and fraud, indeed, there are some still residing in prison as a consequence. Yet, there they were, expressing their disgust at the truly outrageous behaviour of those who have looted, torched and despoiled our great cities, whilst they as a group, have, like the rioters, looted and despoiled the reputaion of the mother of parliaments and for the most part managed to get away with their criminal activity.

And then there was the level of debate, from a House of Commons heavily weighted by those which I refer to as, "The Parliamentary Kindergarten". There they were, almost totally devoid of any experience of life, outside the hallowed ground which they joined straight from university. Add in to that the fact that, across the whole House, the senior members of all parties are from the priviledged background of public schools. What do they know about anything? And why should I, at the age of 76 years, working as I did from 15 until 72, even listen to their hypocritical bleating. We have a saying here in the North East of England which sums them up: "They couldn't mind a quiet bairn".

Talk of short sharp shocks has been an intermittent cry of the Tory Party since Willie Whitelaw was the Home Secretary. He abandoned it as being NOT cost effective and not politically and socially effective. Subsequent Gvts of the Right of both main parties have tried short sharp shocks in various guises ever since. The extent to which they have worked, or not is at best unclear. Part of the difficulty rests in the fact that whatever guise short sharp shocks appear in, those introducing them are often not addressing a problem per se but rather a visible and politically acute manifestation of that problem. This is one of the reasons why penal policy is all over the place and is neither coherent nor effective. It is also one of the reasons that ASBO’s are seen as campaign medals and honoured as much in the breach as in the observance. - And by the way not affording the claimed degree of respite for victims, (disproportionately poorer members of the working class rather than the workers who are members of the metropolitan elite and who determine the culture and politics of neo-liberal society,)

As at present, short sharp shocks are called for typically at times of moral panic. Precisely because the current moral panic has arisen so quickly and touches so many, members and supporters of what is notionally at least a party of the Left, should seek to avoid the rhetoric of the short sharp shock; should seek to avoid it just as Harriet Harmon resisted the noisesome bile of Michael Gove in his efforts to reduce urban violence to a Manichean good vs evil, law and order agenda. Of course, Harmon has strategically failed, if the tenor and joint hymn sheet from which both sides of the Commons were singing yesterday is anything to go by...

Talk of short sharp shocks is as misconceived as is shallow talk of loving and caring for each other. Both serve a political purpose which in neither case substitutes for the politically difficult, urgent and ethically and intellectual demanding task of finding long term democratic solutions; solutions which for socialists and progressive liberals of whatever party is about addressing poverty and alienation.

It would be facile and hypocritical of me to deny that prison or other sanctions available to the state should be applied. But to enmesh that in fear retribution and the backward politics inherent in calls for short sharp shocks of whatever kind, is to play into the hands of the Tories.

Doubtless Stan will heave himself up from his Home Counties redoubt, sniff the air and prate about Marxism. At this hour of the night I don’t bloody care.

Thanks Stan. You do raise a significant point. What leads to every action in terms of mindless pillaging and vandalism there is an opposite right wing action to combat it.

You speak sense, a hard line approach is required in the short term

Short! Sharp! Shock! arguably does work and is very effective and cost effective

Mark, there's a simple answer to your question about the symptoms that need to be tackled. Mindless vandalism, which we should crack down hard on whatever the root causes. If we seem to be arguing for the root causes to be addressed first then this will simply play into the hands of the reactionary right.

Stan raises a very important point. Neal and his team are not getting much support in this debate. Could you explain what symptoms should be tackled.

It is obvious,Angela, that without deprivation,we wouldn't have these riots.Although,there are many contributory factors.
For instance Lord Scarman found that the relationship between locals and the police had a lot to do with the riots of 30yrs ago.It may be that riots can be entirely avoided with the right kind of strategy.
But deprivation is a necessary factor.Being a relative term it relies on the existence of inequality.
We live in an extremely unequal nation as it is,so depriving more poor people of their benefits will only make that worse.You will certainly have more crime and thuggery,and perhaps more riots.
We should punish the looters and arsonists,and criminals in general .
But,only in the fairy story world of the daily mail are welfare payments generous and do people on housing benefit live in great mansions.
As for your racist rioters,I must admit,I hadn't thought of that.If an attack can be shown to have a racist motivation,I understand that carries a harsher punishment.

Neal, I think you will have more support for your line about tackling the root causes of recent events if you came out more strongly on tackling the symptoms.

"Democratic enough to have dumped the Labour Party, and the comments above vindicate that vote"
Thanks Jack. That is precisely the point I have been making throughout this debate.

Compass should have no say, no impact, no allegiance and certianly no influence to Labour Party policy.

You have recognised it, I have recognised it, the majority of Labour activists have recognised. Ii it not time the Compass membership recognised and engage in Reforming Labour.

Peter, we can afford to pay Millions of pounds on overseas conflicts and developments though

All this talk about Evicting these rioters or their Parents.Of Stopping their benefits.
Lets see,you evict a family,Local Housing Authority has a duty of care not to see people homeless.Particularly Children.ie under 18.
Remove their benefits.
Now that,s a great idea.Cameron will love it.Remove benefits from rioters,who will by their crimes become unemployable.So what will these ner do wells do.Go thieving and robbing.
Throw them all in Prison.Ken Clarke was talking about reducing the Prison Population.We cannot afford it like we cannot afford more Police.And if you are all for stopping benefits a lot would be better of in jail.They do provide beds,meals,and TV.
Unless you want to pay for more Prisons and more Police and more Taxes its all knee jerk fluff.
Unemployment is here to stay around the 2 to 3 million mark.With better technology more will become unemployed.Robots make cars,machines sweep the streets.Unless the well offs are prepared to share their jobs and wages,stop complaining about taxes and start thanking god you are not one of the underdogs.

"Your thinktank is at odds with the Labour Party, supporters and the mainstream, thus no line in any of your statements should be followed"

"This website and thinktank is about as democratic as the Democratic Republic of Congo."

Democratic enough to have dumped the Labour Party, and the comments above vindicate that vote.

Angela raises some really important points, which Neal fails to answer over and over again. This website and thinktank is about as democratic as the Democratic Republic of Congo.

You cannot change the terms of the conversation without listening to all voices of society. Is it compass style of politics or Lawson's style of Politics.

Boundaries and setting those boundaries in family life, in society, in sport is called discipline and morality, whether it be self discipline and tolerance coupled with an abominable spirit. Those boundaries need to be set.

The trouble with Britain action only commences when the symptoms appear or the effect has occured. The riots have nothing to do with first second or third dimensional power. Wealth redistribution is important, but the state under New Labour has failed as Ed as pointed out.

People make a choice to start a race, the outcome is always different, the opportunity to be become different, the opportunity to work hard and become wealthy will always be there. The state comes along and takes that wealth away and distrubutes it to rioters and looters. They made a choice to destroy and pillage, they made a bad choice, they should never be rewarded for that. The state must then make a choice to take away welfare benefits, housing, increase police and restrict freedom. If the underclass choose to abuse freedom than that freedom should be restricted for those who don't play by the rules. Simple. Simple. Simple. This is what Ed is saying.

Your thinktank is at odds with the Labour Party, supporters and the mainstream, thus no line in any of your statements should be followed

Choice is a Tory word. Patients do not have choice its the hospital who chooses. Parents and students don't have choice its the schools who chooses. (New Labour Doctrine) More power to parents and pupils...more exclusions. More choice for patients...more privatisation for Hips, hernias and hysterectomy . Who is doing the choosing Neal.

The Tone of the national debate is right. It will work. Involve yourself in the conservation instead of being a "usual suspect". I believe he was aiming this at your thinktank.

"Whether its parenting or poverty or the cultural context."

Using Ed's words yet again.

I am pleased you have done research on organisations and individuals I have also done mine.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

A very relevant and perceptive view. The great sadness is that we have no way of getting this across in the current political disposition. The right-wing press who infantilise all discussion, will want their floggings and all politicians will fear stepping out of line and talking about the very serious issues facing us all. The economic model is failing and it looks as if another recession is on its way perhaps worse. You can understand how the political leaders of the 1930's made so many mistakes when you see they have all been repeated in the last few months. It is going to be a rough ride.

Rioting and looting cannot just be explained away by talking about injustices, some of it is behavioural.
For too long we have positively encouraged our young women to abandon their responsibility by creating the illusion that it's only by working that true happiness can be achieved. This attitude ignores the slingback that then becomes inevitable when our children are raised by someone else. Good parenting has to start with looking after your own children with all the love you can muster.
Fairness in society is achieveable, but i fear not while we have the current type of MP who presently stalks the corridors of the house of commons, ably assisted at all times by their friends in ermine. If we are to ever get to anything like true democracy, then the calibre of MP's has to be more representative of us all who live and work in this country, right now they are most certainly not that.
When the population at large can see that fairness is the overriding factor in our governance, when the rich PAY their taxes, when bankers pay for their stupidity, when miscreant MP's pay for cheating, police have their act cleaned up and the media report the facts, only then will the working man/woman begin to see that democracy really does have SOMETHING for them.
Right now it fails on all fronts.

Angela, they are prosecuted and if found guilty, punished in relevance to the crime. Just because people might be left wing in politics, does'nt mean they they don't believe in the legal process.
There is real blatant criminality in the riots, i don't think anyone denies that, and tragically innocent people have lost their lives. However even Ed Miliband is calling for a public inquiry to look at the underlying causes in our society, that can cause such rioting and criminality. I would'nt exactly call him a bleeding heart liberal.

Neal do you accept that it wrong and anti progressive to reward criminal behaviou?.
Do you also accept that racist behaviour should be unequivocally condemned no matter who commits it.?

On the question of equality. How about bringing forward the housing
benefit cuts. This will ensure that the permanently economically inactive who are living in very expensive accommodation willbe forced to move to cheaper homes. This in turn will alllow the economically active oftenon low incoems, to move into such homes. That seems tobe very fair and in line with the norms of social justice.
But Labour HousingGroup is opposed to this.
Where does Compass stand?
And I repeat my plea. How does a left winge regime deal with racist looting and rioting.?
Over to you Neal.

Chris, thanks for that. you raise tough questions. I think part of the answer is the Compass is not a political party. that doesnt mean we dont want support across society but we do want to change the terms of debate. Some people might want to just hear a tough as possible line but I dont think Compass style politics believes that is right or will help. In fact it will make things worse. We want to go for causes not symptoms. And the only real answer is a massive shift in power and wealth to make our society more equal.

And on choice - the issue is why do some people make 'good' or 'bad' choices? And why are so many seemingly making 'wrong' choices? Whether its parenting or poverty or the cultural context its understanding why that matters.

The tone of the national debate has been worrying over the last 24 hours. Take away their benefits, homes, more police, longer sentences, more prisons etc. It wont work. Its really important we stick to the kind of line we developed in the statement.

I have asked repeatedly for information about how Left-wing regimes deal or should deal with racist arson and looting.

I am still waiting for the bleeding heart liberals to inform me. So far they have only given the feeble explanation of deprivation.
So deprivation caused the racist riots and racist looting. So leftwingers have nothing more to say. Is that right?

Thank you Charles it is genuinely very pleasing that two individuals can hold a conversation and make a point that contributors can reach out to all parts of Great Britain.

However, I also observe patterns of behaviour. On the other hand representatives of Compass (Mr Lawson) on the evidence from this article only have conversations with London contributors and does not reach out any further.

The evidence is plain to see. How is it then on this occasion that most of the contributors to this article are external to the capital. He chooses his replies and contributions well, perhaps to bolster individual self interest and local support.

You only get a response if the points that are raised are relevant to ones belief.

What I have also noticed that on many occasions:-
Quote
"campaigning organisation with a set of beliefs and that requires the development of words and phrases and that popularize our politics"

the same words and phrases are used by the Rt Hon Ed Miliband.

Which leaves me to believe "I do think there are similarities but as you point out this is all very complex"

"Complex" "Simplistic" where have I heard that today.

I let you work it out Bill.

If you are still there,Mark,the intelligence bit was not meant to be tongue-in-cheek.I can see how one might read it that way,though.
You have a very different way of seeing things to myself(I honestly can't see these sub-groups),which made it hard to understand,but I felt there was a consistency to your statement.Along with a bit of fun.
I am all for better communication between the left and those reached out to by it,but I don't believe there is deliberate obscurity.
It is worthwhile being vigilant,however and I will see if I can spot any.
When you mention double speak,is it that you believe their proposed policies are likely to do the opposite of the stated intention,and so see their approach as dishonest?
I have certainly found myself thinking this way about the right.
For instance,I believe that the cuts won't reduce gov. debt, but because of the fall in demand,they will instead increase it.But then comes the suspicion that that is the actual intention.Or is that paranoid?

I am grateful to compass for the sober and sane analysis of the troubles which are afflicting some of our communities at this time. Unfortunately, I don't think the explanations you offer, no matter how accurate, wise, or insightful, will cut much ice with ordinary working people like me who live in the deprived area in which I live.

One reason for this, I think, is that our lives are local. We are on the receiving end of this type of criminality, admittedly in a more attenuated form, day-in-day-out. For instance, I don't think it would be much use me going to see my neighbour who is suffering 24/7 from the anti-social behaviour of the people next door, to explain that the root of the trouble can be traced back to the antics of greedy bankers and corrupt politicians, and his own complicity as a fellow traveller on the merry-go-round of consumer capitalism. I'm sure he has a much more precise view of his predicament.

Another reason may be that ordinary people like me are unwilling to accept that individuals do not have a choice; to riot or not to riot, to loot or not to loot. They are NOT compelled to steal. If the underprivileged are outraged at their dispossession at the hands of the feral elite why are they not laying siege to the mansions of the same in Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire or the Wirral, or outside the corridors of their power instead of pinching anything with a plug on from Curry's or items of equipment containing millions of pixels from Jessops?

I know many people in this area who have had to face up to the consequences of their own addictive behaviour and they know only too well that recovery could not begin until they stopped blaming other people for their misfortunes.

If the democratic left wants to build a following amongst working people it will need to attempt to understand their anger at the disorder they have witnessed. Believe me, we are not blaming bankers or politicians for taking to the streets; we are blaming the undisciplined rabble who think that they have a human right to take or destroy what does not belong to them. We look to the government to smash any idea that rights come before, or are concurrent with, responsibilities. We demand responsibility, and we may grant human rights as a reward. We may be wrong, unenlightened, naïve, reactionary or stupid in the eyes of the left. But if our feelings are unacknowledged in that area of the political spectrum don’t be shocked if we give our allegiance to that area which is prepared to do so. I fear that for the moment the Compass vision is only likely to prove persuasive to the non-feral elite as it puts the world to rights in the wine bars of Westminster.

Intelligent, insightful and moving. The most intelligent piece of commentary on the riots so far....

Plenty of reasonably intelligent people got caught up in the riots as rioters. Intelligence has little to do with judgment. I wouldnto be surprised if illegal entrants were caught up in the riots. Liberals like to avoid the fact that a disproportioante number of illegals have been guilty of criminal acts but have not been deported.
Liberals also avoid the reality that disproportioante number of looters are from specific identities.
Thank you Paul for your observations.
I support the eviction of social tenants who loot. I only observed the fact that such evictions underline the feudal status of social tenants. It would not be possible to evict private tenants or owner occupiers.
As for my interest in funeral pyres: I prophetically suggested preparing the funeral pyre for the remnants of a Labour Party which has lost all legitimacy. I do not want to score additional metaphoric points at such a serious time.
I repeat that today. In fact the riots were a funeral pyre for Labour's inablity to do anything other than to claim that deprivation is the cause of such looting and arson.
This is the claim of Livingstone and his cronies and Harman and a number of others.
The vast majority of voters including Labour voters reject this argument entirely.

The riots- which unlike previous riots actually involved deliberate and mindless harm including loss of life- will have very serious political consequences.
Left-wingers seem unable to grasp that Britain is about to become a quite different country very soon.
Labour and the LEft were alwasys detached from reality. The riots prove it.
Other left wingers could perhaps inform us about how other Left-wing regimes and societies deal with racist arson and looting.

I suspect that in some ways Angela Pinter reflects the views of ordinary Labour voters. She certainly does so more than the Proprietor of Compass and his grasping friends who to a man and woman worked assiduously- and to their own benefit- to push Labour to the Right and with the Tories to create the economy and society giving rise to the situation Lawson, CrudFord et al, now seek to politically and ethically exploit on behalf of their ‘new labour’ cronies.

Before taking seriously this statement which in its tone and content seems to combine the political opportunism of Lawson with that whining crypto-conservative sanctimony CrudFord manage with such mind numbing verve, it would be good to hear an apology from these ‘new labour’ careerists and beneficiaries. It would be even better to hear some acknowledgement of culpability from this trio, (and the rest of the ‘new labour’ elite,) for the deeply rightwing policies at the root of current difficulties.

Some hopes of course. Street burn and people die. No thanks at all to Labour neo-liberals from the PLP to Compass, the working class majority whom they exploit, mostly retain a solidarity and dignity which the Labour Right in its greed and shallowness only knows how to patronise and exploit.

As to Angela Pinter, in the unlikely event that looters and robbers who are homeowners have their property sequestered by the state, then might be the time to treat tenants as she suggests. Short of that Angela should perhaps return to her curious interest in funerals and fires.

Hi Gavin,
My personal analysis leads to the need for political literacy / education / efficacy from an earlier age, with attention to ontology, epistemology and axiology, i.e. philosophical and theoretical foundations in education, not settling for pragmatic consumerist, neo-liberalism currently assumed in much policy and practice.

My study of the personal and professional development of the critical global educator is over-whelming and prevents my writing to my MP David Heath, but I hope this will form part of Compass' response.

Maureen

"My opinion is that they should be removed together with any children or other family members"
A pretty radical statement there, but how many illegal immigrants would be stupid enough to get caught up in the riots? If we want to see a clean sweep here, why don't we prosecute speculative bankers, tax evading corporate CEOs. Deport James and Rupert Murdoch, Simon Cowell for being a celebrity culture prat, the list is endless. However don't forget the real culprit namely, neo liberal free markets, supported by successive governments since 1979. If we dump that then maybe we can get somewhere, but don't hold your breath.